BEST PROJECTED IMAGE FOR HT AT CINEMACON 2019!!!!

[Art Sonneborn]

Peter,
I can't tell who said what in that post.


Art

[donaldk]

I can as I know what I posted at AVS;-).

Peter's response starts with 'this idea of making a...'

[Peter CINERAMAX]

I put his comment in "_". And he lies that 10,000 is LOW DYNAMIC Range IT IS IN THE UPPER RANGE OF EDR. Enhanced dynamic range, but 15,000-1 is definitely HDR. More HDR that some persons sitting in a black room will find comfortable due to the specular highlights. You cannot place a 2,000 nits display in a dark room as it will hurt your retina over time.


Then he bundles the Eclipse and the 885 and 995 es in the same group, foolish ingenue for doing that (not personal just pointing his blinders to other pic quality parameters).  MTF and colorimetry first please, then stretch your HDR as far as your eye comfort is not affected. The r-608 with A's Lens aperture and ultimate screen will achieve that in a big way.

[lygren]

...zero acoustical interference...




Really, hehe... Man, that screen must be some real magic stuff in such case!! Not trying to give you a hard time or anything here, but most other perforated vinyls cut somewhere between 7 and 15dB, how have they managed to reduce this to "zero"...?


Other than that, I agree with Arrow on his argument that in order to achieve proper High Dynamic Range you do need a proper black floor, and 8-10K:1 in combination with a bunch of light on a (relatively) small screen will make a lot of content washed. That´s just the truth, and sure, blacks is not everything, I am sure the Sony is great in a bunch of other regards, but for certain content it will have a hard time delivering stellar performance - 1.8 gain, 0.8 gain or whatever...
<\q>

MY RESPONSE:

I took it to my ear borrowed it and went listening with one ear drum, like i did with the v6. It is completely transparent using that method that worked in the past with the V6. No one is trying to sabotage your manufacturing effort, but certainly I don't care how politically correct you act (  and i amended the post as per your pc request) YOU ARE HURTING THE PROJECTION INDUSTRY by attacking the ultimate screen sight unseen.





The ultimate screen is the only acoustically transparent screen that behaves visually as the torus screen, the best EDR projection image in xenon world, soon to be tested with a Barco 4 series (because the sr-608 wont mask to 4 curved edges if you ask). 

And let's stop this 8k-1 nonsense please the projector is certified 10k-1 for DCI where no stinking calibrator is needed just a good spectroradiometer. In DCI color is calibrated automatically which spares the nightmares that pass for excellent calibration in the AVSFORUM land. The sr-608 is NOT a watered down version of the larger sony's, it is a souped up version of a 5000 (which i hate due to the excessive blue casting a haze on the image which this projector lifts. I doubt it very much this projector will require the shading and uniformity controls needed by the bigger sonys's- otherwise that would have been brought up by the hundreds of users using the 5000 for years) I know and respect the source of that statement but totally disagree this projector will need such tweaking simply because i have never seen an sr-815 look as clean as the sr-608. SQUEAKY CLEAN.

A lens aperture is a great way of increasing contrast by an honest 50% there is the 15000-1 that is good enough for any HDR.

[Peter CINERAMAX]

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...l#post58355190


He responded here:
"Couple of things here The ON/OFF contrast performance of the SONY SRX-R608 measures 10,000:1 peak and circa 8,000:1 when accurately calibrated. There is no scenario wherein it measures 15,000:1. And further to my measurements confirming as such, this information is from SONY themselves. Screen is irrelevant with respect to contrast within blacked out environments. Ambient light rejecting screens can help to reduce the negative impact on contrast performance due to environmental light, however no projection screen exists which is able to increase the dynamic range and hence the maximum ON/OFF contrast performance. Negative gain screens will deepen the black floor however concomitantly will lessen the white level as well, akin to an ND Filter. Consequently, "15K:1 with iris and screen" is incorrect misinformation.WRONGThe SONY SRX-R608 is essentially a stripped down, compacted, budget version of the SONY SRX-R815 with the target demographic being small cinemas where a lower price than the SONY SRX-R815 is desired and where retaining reference performance over the long-term is not a priority. Wherein, both the SONY SRX-R815 and SONY SRX-R608 have essentially the same identical luminance dynamic range and hence contrast performance. Both projectors are singular blue-laser through yellow phosphor panel SXRD LCoS and utilize color filters to achieve high coverage of DCI-P3 color gamut within BT.2020.


However, the SONY SRX-R608, being a stripped down, compacted, budget version of the SONY SRX-R815, does not have the tools that come with the SONY SRX-R815 that are used for optimizing and retaining the baseline image quality over time, which includes image uniformity as well as any drifting or degradation with respect to contrast performance. So in this regard you get what you pay for. Wherein, personally, I consider these features of the SONY SRX-R815 to be all-important, especially when the intended usage is home theater, and particularly high-end home theater, which is the application here.PARTIALLY WRONGThe fact of the matter is that Barco's new Series 4 range of D-Cinema projectors, which are full RGB laser projectors with native 4K 3-Chip DLP TRP chipsets, and which are very similar cost to the SONY SRX-R608, significantly outperform it with respect to both "colorimetry and MTF". Where the SONY SRX-R608 achieves 100% coverage of DCI-P3 within BT.2020 the new Barcos achieve 99% coverage of BT.2020. Remember the SONY SRX-R608 is only singular blue laser; and there is quite simply no contest as compared with full true RGB laser as far as color performance is concerned. And with respect to sharpness and MTF it should be noted that we are comparing LCoS vs DLP, wherein the latter is superior with respect to not just sharpness and MTF but also image uniformity as well, and typically also RGB pixel alignment and chromatic aberration to boot.
I AM INSTALLING THE FIRST HOME BARCO SERIES 4 - NOT ENTIRELY HAPPY ABOUT THE CHOICE, MUCH BETTER IF THE SR-608 HAD TORUS MASKING. P3 WAY TOO THIN LOOKING.So, no, the SONY SRX-R608 is not the best projected image at CinemaCon 2019 as far as "colorimetry and MTF" are concerned.BULLSHIT - IT WAS. IF YOU GROOMED YOUR EYEBALLS CORRECTLY.It probably was/is as far as contrast and black level performance is concerned, however given the competition are touting the usual circa 2,000:1 - 5,000:1 ON/OFF contrast performance of almost all D-Cinema projectors this is not really cause for excitement. SONY's objective here was and is to simply have better contrast performance than the competition and in this regard 10,000:1 ON/OFF contrast achieves this. Is this the level of contrast performance that we desire or consider acceptable for high-end home theater, taking the performance of other high-end projectors into consideration, such as the JVC RS4500/Z1, JVC RS3000/NX9, SONY 995ES, SONY 885ES, and SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS? Nope. And not even close! It's even a step down as compared with the SONY 5000ES.

ONLY A FOOLISH NAIVETE COMMENT CALLING THOSE EXAMPLES - HIGH END PROJECTION, THEREIN LIES YOUR BLIND SPOT.There are other projectors with superior colorimetry and MTF. There are other projectors with significantly superior contrast performance. And there are other new projectors in the pipeline as well which will outperform the SONY SRX-R608.THERE YOU GO AGAIN THROWING AROUND PURPORTED NDA'S TO INCREASE YOUR SELF IMPORTANCE, LIKE THE ECLIPSE THAT CHRISTY TRIPLE SPECIALLY AUTHORIZED YOU TO RELEASE THE SECRET NAME LAST WEEK THAT WAS ALREADY IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN FOR A WEEK AT DISPLAY DAILY- NOW THAT IS VERY SMALL MINDED AND YOU MAY FOOL SOME PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME, BUT I SEE THROUGH YOUR BS.  As per usual I am just being completely impartial, straight, and honest here… so sorry if I am being a party pooper! MORE LIKE AN INDUSTRY POOPER.
This is most certainly is not the successor to the SONY 5000ES that people have been and are waiting for. Hopefully we will soon be seeing a new projector which qualifies as a proper upgrade from the SONY 5000ES. The SONY SRX-R608 is not that projector

[donaldk]

There was a statement, there must have been, as the base info/quotes ended up in three online reports, but the statement/release is nowhere to be found. But Christie seems to provide some media with a release, only to follow it wit a public release long after the news. I noticed DCI-Forum reporting 'the news' today that Christie supplied projectors to the Cannes filmfestival, that was held two months ago.


Chris attended a press day at the Hayden, and got to speak with engineers from both planetarium and Christie. So, he had additional information over the two other online reports. Providing NEWS.


On AVS some-one found a report refering to the new million to one projector at the Dolby theater as eclipse' last year.


As for Sony and NDA's, I heared people were asked to sign an NDA for the private demo, at ISE.

[lygren]

Peter, just to make it completely clear - I am not saying this "ultimate screen" might not be a very nice one in terms of image quality for properly customised installations, I was merely referring to your comment on the zero acoustical impact being very hard to achieve perforating PVC plastics. I am certainly not saying the V6 is perfect in every regards, each screen has its own pros and cons for sure, and if you believe me to be arrogant as such I can assure you I am not. Still, facts are - you are giving away acoustical perfection when choosing perforated PVC over weave or knit (or better yet, a hybrid...), but whether this is regarded a showstopper is certainly individual. For commercial theatres blowing off some dB´s through their perforated PVC´s is really not a big issue as the overall SPL normally would compensate quite well anyhow, but it is certainly my clear opinion that in a hi-end home cinema theatre, even a 4-5 dB drop through the screen steals off important nuances and details as you are not - except for you that is - playing reference SPL levels ALL the time...


As for the new Sony, time will show, the only "real" solution to "OLED blacks" in combination with HDR peaks seems to be blocking chips which is currently patented by Christie, so until someone figures out a better solution we would all be stuck with somewhat inferior blacks. Image quality on most other aspects, however, might still be great, and I am sure both the DCI Sony and the new 4-series Barco is great except for the ultimate blacks...

[Peter CINERAMAX]

Hi, The screen is not pvc plastic but actually a nano-perforated mylar sheet, to be honest to my ear listening to music and dialog is as close to no screen at all, perhaps it is it's rigidity that enhances the sound transparency. I assure you it is very impressive. Not to mention the TORUS LIKE optical enhancement of the image dynamics and kickback light rejecting properties.


I agree the 6p version of the christie is the ultimate projector, but is only available for rent from Dolby. Also the 6p prototype of the barco light steering was very impressive and coupled with dynamic laser dimming is promising, the thing is I believe the new light steerers will be p3, and boy do i have reservations about that ultra narrow wavelength technology as a videophile projector, my only reservation with the Eclipse.


70 mm is about as hdr as home projection should go, in my opinion, we have an Imax 70mm here and Star wars 7 and Dunkirk are great examples of a reference image. The sr-608 with a lens mod and the U Screen i believe will give you something very close to it, for a song.


Then of course there are the videowalls, and i don't believe in center channels being necessarily behind the screen as i spent 25 years working around that with Torus and DNP rearscreens. The big boys were here in my lab and were happy with the way the center channel was handled.


What I am  NOT LIKING about micro-led is the reflectivity and tiling, in that regard there are lesser cr. solutions that don't have that problem albeit 8k-1 cr. there, but the Samsung Cinema Onyx is spectacular and the cr. is right around there , so you see maybe this insane cr. is being overhyped. I restate that the 608 with 50% cr. increase lens mod and the US is the ultimate projection display for the buck.

[Peter CINERAMAX]

And the violin that plays with an arrow instead of a bow continues playing in the background regarding Eclipse naming secrecy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk
That we knew it from other reports the week before;-)"In the professional industry yes. This did not happen by accident. Christie specifically wanted to keep their primary target demographic happy so the NDA with respect to the name was lifted with respect to the professional industry a week prior to the home theater industry, which is why it was announced in the professional industry first Also, not everyone reads the professional industry press releases Donald  "

DISPLAY DAILY is a free weekly Crystal Ball newsletter that no self respecting display professional should get caught not scanning once a week. .Lest the super NDA insiders lose some face about their exclusive insiderness exclusivity claims..

[Peter CINERAMAX]

Originally Posted by Ericglo
How can LCOS exceed DLP in MTF performance? Has it been measured?
It doesn't
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk
@Ericglo , cinemacon. Though Sony won his best demo award for that show due to Barco messing up.
"Well lo and behold, in discussing my impressions with a person in the know it turns out that for the 2D demo of this amazingly engineered projector, the show runners left the RealD Z-Screen in front of the lens, and did not switch the internal 2D profile!"
DPI 8K HDR demo won his best projection demo at show award for Infocomm. So he is not off DLP, he just found the 608 lacked the 8 bit banding of the 5000, and had good color and MTF. He observed the 815 like quality. Of course there was no long term review opportunity to observe the quality reduction over time, Nigel mentioned above. I believe Alan did a long term review of the 815.
The DPI 8K has an unacceptably high amount of video noise and abysmal contrast and black level performance due to 2000:1 native ON/OFF contrast and dynamic contrast functionality that is so bad it is unusable.
Furthermore, as I have already pointed out, you can't have good HIGH Dynamic Range performance when there is LOW Dynamic Range! The SONY SRX-608 has comparatively poor HDR performance because it measures low usable dynamic range. The DPI 8K has even lower usable dynamic range (less than 2000:1) so it's HDR performance is even worse!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo
I went over to the dci forum to glance at his comments for myself. I see he quoted Arrow and added his responses to why he thinks the Sony is better. Also it looks like he inserted his own comment on Lygren's reply some how.
One thing I will say is that measuring MTF with your eyes is silly. I have asked for data before, but he or anyone else hasn't been forthcoming. This whole MTF performance metric was first discussed over a decade ago by TSE. When Darin and I visited him at VDC, he showed us how to measure MTF. DLPs at the time were the best followed by LCOS. The difference wasn't huge and IIRC was getting into diminishing returns. Maybe Darin remembers more details. Somewhere in the archives, TSE even gave a way to measure MTF.
I just glanced over there to see what he's posted and I am disappointed to see that there is GIANT FONT SIZE and MULTI COLORED TEXT with resorting to childish name calling and petty jibes... Furthermore, he says I am wrong, without any explanation or scientific substantiation regarding matters which are scientific fact and are proven by measurements which are repeatable. Sorry, but I think I will leave it there if that's OK?
And I would love to see sometime his magic projection screen material that is capable of breaking the laws of physics and increasing peak ON/OFF contrast and dynamic range performance, given this is impossible
The fact of the matter is that it is hardly surprising that "He observed the 815 like quality" given it's essentially a stripped down, compacted, budget version of the 815 (as I have already stated).
Both Alan Gouger and I have had extensive handson time and experience comprehensively evaluating all of SONY's D-cinema offerings, including the 815, and neither of us is impressed by the 815. So it's not really very surprising that neither of us is impressed by the 608 either
By the way, I should add that I don't consider ANY of the new D-Cinema projector offerings to be of interest for high-end home theater. They all have issues. The SONY SRX 608 has poor contrast, rubbish black floor, uniformity issues, and performance deterioration over the long-term without the tools that come with the SRX 815 that are needed to fix them and/or bring the performance back to baseline, to name but a few. It's also only singular blue laser, when there are now full RGB laser projectors available at this price range. Whereas the new BARCO Series 4 projectors, whilst being full RGB laser projectors with native 4K DLP TRP chipsets, have even worse contrast and even more rubbish black floor. I have already explained why the new 8K DPI is no good. The new dual Red and Blue laser projector offerings from NEC are unfortunately no good either. As per the new 8K DPI these are reliant upon dynamic contrast functionality remedying the very low native contrast performance, however, as per the 8K DPI, the dynamic contrast functionality is abysmal and hence unusable.
The fact of the matter is the whichever projector must significantly outperform the existing flagship home theater projector offerings, including the SONY 5000ES and JVC RS4500/Z1, to warrant consideration for purchasing; and it's neither an upgrade nor acceptable if certain aspects, such as contrast and black floor are a step down in performance. And the fact of the matter is that it is scientifically impossible to achieve good HDR performance with low dynamic range, wherein high performance not only with respect to the ON/OFF contrast is required but also throughout the range 0% - 20% ADL which is wherein almost all video content resides, and in particular 0% - 5% ADL. And this is where ALL the existing SONY and BARCO D-Cinema projectors fail, including the new SONY SRX 608 and BARCO Series 4.
The upcoming next generation BARCO projectors which will be making use of its 'Light Steering' technology to boost dynamic range performance have the potential to tick all the right boxes in this regard. So these are definitely worth looking out for. However, of course the jury is out with respect to just how effective this new technology actually is in reality. And then there's the possible new flagship home theater laser projector offerings from the likes of SONY and JVC. And additionally there is the possiblity of a native 4K iteration of the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS on the horizon. And then of course there is the CHRISTIE ECLIPSE for those interested in the ultimate video performance. These I see as the best contenders for existing SONY 5000ES owners who are looking to upgrade


it is impossible to cut and paste from the other forum without all kinds of formatting issues and essentially editing what looks like a blank screen, the bold fonts were a crude method of separating my responses, no personal animosity was being conveyed. I will respond at another time.... MTF is something you can train your eye for, in the case of the sxrd the color filters create an obvious MTF DIFFERENTIAL, in DLP the use of p3 as compared to xenon or 6p takes down the perceived MTF. The 6k samsung the wall and 8k LG microled appear to have less MTF than the one SMD 1.2"


Too many NEW perceptual variables add to the confusion of what and how to measure High MTF. Thanks Donald for misquoting my saying that the dpi 8k with the light pumping iris was the least shitty projected image at Cinemacon, where 4 walls killed all the projectors at the show.


Notice once I post that I am stuck using a Barco 4 series for the Torus redo project Nigel pivots from praising the virtues of the Barco 4k series to trashing it. Fair. But what is wrong with the 4 series is not the contrast but the p3 technology that is clinical very un xenon like, and that applies to the eclipse.


I do not disagree with everything Nige says, let's just say this, its time to put a fork on projection. The ultimate screen is not defying phisics, it is redirecting light to the viewer, with that come those elusive properties of the Torus screen that appears more liffelike, eliminating the kickback light from the sidewalls is a good thing, less light screwing your floor.

[Peter CINERAMAX]

I propose a more sporting alternative to settle this matter. That the reader takes at face value what I am saying about the sony with the lens mod and the US, if i do make piglets rain at the special Alcons demo. Fair?

[donaldk]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo  View Post
How can LCOS exceed DLP in MTF performance? Has it been measured?
It doesn't

Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk  View Post
@Ericglo , cinemacon. Though Sony won his best demo award for that show due to Barco messing up.

"Well lo and behold, in discussing my impressions with a person in the know it turns out that for the 2D demo of this amazingly engineered projector, the show runners left the RealD Z-Screen in front of the lens, and did not switch the internal 2D profile!"

DPI 8K HDR demo won his best projection demo at show award for Infocomm. So he is not off DLP, he just found the 608 lacked the 8 bit banding of the 5000, and had good color and MTF. He observed the 815 like quality. Of course there was no long term review opportunity to observe the quality reduction over time, Nigel mentioned above. I believe Alan did a long term review of the 815.
The DPI 8K has an unacceptably high amount of video noise and abysmal contrast and black level performance due to 2000:1 native ON/OFF contrast and dynamic contrast functionality that is so bad it is unusable.

Furthermore, as I have already pointed out, you can't have good HIGH Dynamic Range (HDR) performance when there is LOW Dynamic Range! The SONY SRX-608 has comparatively poor HDR performance because it measures low usable dynamic range. The DPI 8K has even lower usable dynamic range (less than 2000:1) so it's HDR performance is even worse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo  View Post
I went over to the dci forum to glance at his comments for myself. I see he quoted Arrow and added his responses to why he thinks the Sony is better. Also it looks like he inserted his own comment on Lygren's reply some how.

One thing I will say is that measuring MTF with your eyes is silly. I have asked for data before, but he or anyone else hasn't been forthcoming. This whole MTF performance metric was first discussed over a decade ago by TSE. When Darin and I visited him at VDC, he showed us how to measure MTF. DLPs at the time were the best followed by LCOS. The difference wasn't huge and IIRC was getting into diminishing returns. Maybe Darin remembers more details. Somewhere in the archives, TSE even gave a way to measure MTF.
I just glanced over there to see what he's posted and I am disappointed to see that there is GIANT FONT SIZE and MULTI COLORED TEXT with resorting to childish name calling and petty jibes... Furthermore, he says I am wrong, without any explanation or scientific substantiation regarding matters which are scientific fact and are proven by measurements which are repeatable. Sorry, but I think I will leave it there if that's OK?

And I would love to see sometime his magic projection screen material that is capable of breaking the laws of physics and increasing peak ON/OFF contrast and dynamic range performance, given this is impossible 

The fact of the matter is that it is hardly surprising that "He observed the 815 like quality" given it's essentially a stripped down, compacted, budget version of the 815 (as I have already stated).

Both Alan Gouger and I have had extensive handson time and experience comprehensively evaluating all of SONY's D-cinema offerings, including the 815, and neither of us is impressed by the 815. So it's not really very surprising that neither of us is impressed by the 608 either

By the way, I should add that I don't consider ANY of the new D-Cinema projector offerings to be of interest for high-end home theater. They all have issues. The SONY SRX 608 has poor contrast, rubbish black floor, uniformity issues, and performance deterioration over the long-term without the tools that come with the SRX 815 that are needed to fix them and/or bring the performance back to baseline, to name but a few. It's also only singular blue laser, when there are now full RGB laser projectors available at this price range. Whereas the new BARCO Series 4 projectors, whilst being full RGB laser projectors with native 4K DLP TRP chipsets, have even worse contrast and even more rubbish black floor. I have already explained why the new 8K DPI is no good. The new dual Red and Blue laser projector offerings from NEC are unfortunately no good either. As per the new 8K DPI these are reliant upon dynamic contrast functionality remedying the very low native contrast performance, however, as per the 8K DPI, the dynamic contrast functionality is abysmal, fundamentally flawed, and hence unusable.

The fact of the matter is that for a new projector at this price range to be of interest it must significantly outperform the existing flagship home theater projector offerings, including the SONY 5000ES and JVC RS4500/Z1; and it's neither an upgrade nor acceptable if certain aspects, such as contrast and black floor are a significant step down in performance. And the fact of the matter is that it is scientifically impossible to achieve good HDR performance with low dynamic range, wherein high performance not only with respect to the ON/OFF contrast is required but also throughout the range 0% - 20% ADL which is wherein almost all video content resides, and in particular 0% - 5% ADL. And this is where ALL the existing SONY and BARCO D-Cinema projectors fail, including the new SONY SRX 608 and BARCO Series 4.

The upcoming next generation BARCO projectors which will be making use of its patented 'Light Steering' technology to boost dynamic range performance have the potential to tick all the right boxes. So these are definitely worth looking out for. However, of course the jury is out with respect to just how effective this new technology actually is in reality. We shall see. And then there's the possible new flagship home theater laser projector offerings from the likes of SONY and JVC. And additionally there is the possibility of a native 4K iteration of the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS on the horizon. And then of course there is the CHRISTIE ECLIPSE for those interested in the ultimate video performance. These I see as the best contenders for existing SONY 5000ES owners who are looking to upgrade

[donaldk]

Something like this Peter? Somehow the default post window was set to HTML, over the original text format.I have complained but it was not changed. So now with every post or edit I have to click the arrow at the end of the icon bar to go to text mode. Makes it much easier to edit stuff.

[Peter CINERAMAX]

Yes that is very nice, will try absorb later.


But i have found that Nigel is misinformed about Alans sequence of projectors confusing the 515 for the 815, he is obviously wrong. Ill admit that this little chess game pursuing the absolute truth about the best projector at the moment, compounded by all parties changing their minds after having supported certain positions THIS IS confusing but in the spirit of the absolute truth I CALL CHECK.