A SUPERIOR IMMERSIVE SYSTEM OPTIMIZED FOR SONY C-LED

[donaldk]

Major news. So when should it arrive?

[Peter CINERAMAX]

100 days.

[MAttHEATLifer]

Sorry if I missed the answer to this question, I am new to forum.

What made you switch over from Samsung’s the Wall Luxury to Sony’s Crystal LED ?

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Hi Matt welcome to DCI forum. Believe or not I had written a long post explaining the whole story but went to click google zoom and xed out instead, i promise i will write it all up with the background of the Screen vetting.


We were fully committed to the Wall Luxury based on image expectations derived from seeing the wall professional.


We even built the frame for it.





Rather well engineered, no?


I had seen the Cled at Cinemacon  intro in 2016. Looked great but not quite the giant BVM ref. monitor image. It was 1.2 million $.


Way too much for millionaires.


Quite frankly since seeing the Jetsons at age 9 I have been on a constant search for the Holly Grail Display for Penthouses with a great view. This made it all possible 50 years later. LOL.


Long Story Short: When Samsung finally rolled out the Wall Lux, they went for so much specifications that they basically clogged the pipeline and screwed the image up royally. Because they are new to the LED Videowall arena they did not count on the massive data flow that would be required from the sendbox to the display, the end result is dithering ( which creates the same discomfort as color wheels on projectors)and also excessive HDR.


I told my San Diego client (code name Blofeld because his PH is all that) this from Orlando that the Wall in a few minutes managed to poke my eye to the point of nerve pain and wanted my eyes to turn cross eyed. The eye pain I experienced once before on the SIM2 duo the my friends had cranked up to the maxx sans filters. They later plopped filters in and lowered the lamps by 50%.


So my trained eyes have this fail safe for when just too much HDR is on the screen, otherwise my eyes are great, even complimented recently for the Barco series 4 setup.


My client trusts me implicitely but hearing that the Wall did not meet expectations after a 2 year planning effort was a bit inconvenient.


Not only that I told my client that somehow the C LED Image was way better calibrated and possesed a unique very inviting element to the picture that instead of repelling you wants to sit there mesmerized for hours on end. I took the liberty of introducing the project to SONY who were very interested in the SKYLOUNGE PROTOTYPE.


To be honest among 60 led walls at the show I revisited another more conventional 1.2 wall that in my opinion was second only to the SONY but at half the price, The client and I had flewn up to see that other brand back in 2018 and was being considered, except this other version of it was incredible. Code name Miami Screen.


We got quotes for all of them, at the end contrary to Mr. Marketing's assertion, the price per square foot is the same on both the CLED and Wall Lux.


Still the owner had too much invested in the wall luxury. During CEDIA i took the client first to see the Wall and although there was not too much HDR this time, I asked him what do you see, the color dithering I argue, he immediately said Why Am I not Loving this picture? there is something uncomfortable going on. I said now you get it. We walked over to the CLED and he just sat there quietly for 10 minutes, " I can't get my eyes off this image" he said, so inviting I want to just stay here watching. That is when I spotted Jason Metcalfe the sales engineer and asked for an invite to the backroom.


Mind you the best place to see the CLED is in SONY pictures in a dark DCI cinema. But his impression at CEDIA completely re prioritized the display element of the project.


tbc

[Peter CINERAMAX]

You have to understand that what set me on the quest to replicate the audio of the room where ATMOS was perfected, is the around the head envelopment. Without that ATMOS sounds like a regular 7.1 but with very tall speakers around the room. What a missed opportunity, I grant you my proposed tops setup appears obscure and out of left field, but we did implement nearly 10 high channel count altitude 32 installs some more topsmersive than others. Trinnov come checkout SOLFAR and hear the hippopotamus drop overhead. I promise an epiphany.

https://youtu.be/TQupuCtkZt0


This is the room:
/Gravity+Premiere+3.jpeg?format=2500w">


Notice the close spacing of the tops. The very same spacing that Tony Grimani independently recommends.


https://youtu.be/1mIX3-y6tHk


In our SONY CINERAMAX C LED Skylounge of the future we took great care to have the atmos tops positioned very aggressive (i spent years moving speakers around to achieve the around the head envelopment). We also positioned the tops at the precise angles where they will present themselves more discretely.









Now see where TRINNOV RECOMMENDS placing all the speakers. No disrespect to Trinnovs hard work and superb processor, but their recommended layout has already negatively impacted 2 of my Alcons audio installations that would otherwise being supreme, had they approached ATMOS soundfields in the TOPSMERSSIVE manner that listening to the original Atmos room enlightened me so strongly, the high end audio would sound infinetely better. I look forward to showing Trinnov, how to correctly layout the tops In Solfar.


Here is the seminar where they are promoting this Not Around Your head sound doughnut.


https://register.gotowebinar.com/rec...04882220014338


I very much look forward to showing Trinnov the wonders of topsmerssion, after all in Kaleidescape 90% of the mixes are the original CINEMA Tops Spacing and NOT the highly theoretical but almost never implemented home atmos remix, the bane of all immersive audio coding.

[Peter CINERAMAX]

When i had my client commission a whole array of DTS-X pro speakers to independently complement The Atmos Rig, i did so, not worrying about the object based DTS-X codec but for the ultimate manifestation of NeuralX an IP that DTS acquired, previously contemplated for acquisition by THX. I did so based on my 21 year old experience in doing a distributed multiroom surround system for DTS Multichannel Music CD's.


It was a stack of meridian surround processors that among other zones, played 4 channels around the swimming pool of 13 Tahiti beach drive in Coral Gables.

You can see 2 rockustics still flanking the jacuzzi, the orchestra imaged from below the water level to an invisible 18 foot bubble above.


There playing Pavarotti and Friends in 1999 you could hear the orchestra coming from under the ground level by 8-10 degrees sunk. I heard that years later when Curt introduced the Trinnov at the jbl booth in CEDIA 2015. I clearly experienced the concert video sound imaging well from beneath the ground. These were m2's sitting on the floor. The rare auditory treat instantly familiar on the sensory bank. From 26 years earlier.


So it is a Native DTS Music thing, that images well bellow the ground. I have the most comprehensive Popular music multi-channel collection curated just to show off the floor channels in Solfar.


The intent of the addition of the Quested For CINERAMAX private series: Badger, is to anchor the natural imaging of DTS Multichannel music as close to the ground as possible so that it crawls under the floor to image very prominently at times. It is positively glorious. And a great reason to deploy the badgers.


Hey MagnumX no need to shoot the messenger. I chose to ask DTS to include the floor channels because I like how DTS images bellow floor level on some music content. So I am counting on the floor channels to enhance that imaging. This can be proven, I gave 2 examples.

[Peter CINERAMAX]

I am now tasked with autocadding the design of the Valhalla Gates Mains columns.


Again the over under centre channels are mislabeled subwoofer, ignore.


They are these guys :
tilted top centre.



Bottom centre.





The theare is totally viking inspired named SOLFAR the Viking Solar Voyager sculpture in Reykjavik.


That is why the main left and right speaker columns should resemble existing TRAPEZOIDAL PERSPECTIVE renderings on the putative gates of Valhalla. Easier said than done due to tight quarters.

[Peter CINERAMAX]

somwhow i was able to respond to matt heatlifes post above inside his own post lol. Take a look, more to come.

[Peter CINERAMAX]

So after CEDIA we started looking at 3 options, CLED, code name The Miami Screen at half the price of the big boys and the Wall.


A demo was setup at SONY Pictures, the client was blown away again, he like that in the dark the tile structure was not evident in most scenes.


On the subject of the tile structure, it is one of those psycho-visual phenomenons that yes you see tile structure in the background and it is very consistent but defying logic no one really seems bothered at all by this physical structure. The MTF and Image quality throughput is simply overwhelming, it captivates and the structure is effectively rendered wholly inconsequential. Who knows why? But that should be the subject of future studies. Blofeld commented that seeing the water on top of a frog on a Planet Earth segment was enhanced in the dark by the sony semi gloss structure. So the NEW coating goes a long way in portraying the ultimate image quality, he concluded.

[Here is a parallel buyer beware in projection screens for RGB Lasers, if you want to see the microtexture IE WATER GLOSS on a frog, do know that by not going with an optical screen and using a woven diffusive screen you will not see that microtexture correctly resolved, I can prove that here on The Torus. The finest videophile screen  ]

The client also subsequently attended the Rancho Santa Fe Wall install, at that point, as opposed to the shows there were little visible tiling issues which moved samsung to plan b rank, the owner watches content through apps instead of a Kaleidescape oy. Still the image of the Wall Lux was not quite the level of image perfection the price commands. The wall has a satin reflection sheen like all led walls, different than the glossy CLED and The Flat frosted Miami Screen.


A quick and dirty recommendation ive come up with regarding screen sheen type. No Satin the 2 extremes are better displays for 2020.


He even went up again to see the code name Miami Screen and found the image quite competent except the water on the frog did not look as hyper real as the CLED.


The Wall was still in the running, i had figured out a way to play 3D on the SONY using a stripper and a dimension 3d box, when i received a lumagen and figured out, that it should work with the C-LED to do active 3D. Within a week SONY Japan bought a Lumagen and made the 3D work. That setup yet another demo for the client, this time in Silicon Valley on a HD sized smaller screen, while not the most perfect 3D in the world being 120fps instead of triple flashed the image was more than excellent NEGATIVE PARALLAX on LED SCREENS takes on the VISUAL TORQUE of a locomotive, you will get out of the way.
A little more negotiation, I get exclusive Publishing right with SONY and the deal was sealed.I am tickled pink that the clients eyes were in sync with mine, and am looking forward to a bold new age of wall-screen skylounges.




By The Way the architecture of the room is all my design, having been a frustrated architect my whole life, am happy with the way it is turning out. Cheers!

[Peter CINERAMAX]

Here is the Dante B chain distribution.

[Peter CINERAMAX]

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/2803665-conceptualizing-ultimate-front-soundstage-system-cledis.html#post51973057

[MAttHEATLifer]

Peter

Thanks for all the info
It’s greatly appreciated.

I heard that Samsung announced an updated Wall Luxury with a smaller pixel pitch of .432 vs .84 of current model.
So 75 in will be 4k and 150 in will be 8k.
Also with 5000 nits vs 2000 nits.

Samsung says that its new 88-inch and 150-inch MicroLED options will introduce ultra-slim infinity designs, virtually removing all four sides of the bezels.

Do you have any info of other improvements ?

Thanks again for the welcome to the forum.

Was looking up info on MicroLED on google and stumble upon this forum.
Recognized your name from AVS Forum and Kaleidescape Owners Forum.

[Peter CINERAMAX]

My Pleasure Matt,


I bumped a thread where i calculated screen sizes for this new Samsung.

Yeah those numbers are insane, if 2,000 nits in a dark hallway triggered a nerve pain, 5,000 nits would likely leave image retention for a fraction of seconds. I had that in the intro to the Dolby cinema projector (the Christie eclipse original DCI version) from the specular (few pixel narrow zone) highlight on the edge of blade in the kitchen fight of the movie SPY.


These extreme high ranges are very interesting to see how they will develop to emulate How The Eyes sees, the goal of HDR.


Good metrics are am important objective consideration, but the nascent art of dynamic tone-mapping is something that still requires a human eye to set properly balanced, You also need some very good and extended Kaleidescape scripts to make the settings consistent among all great content.


I don't see any standards for the calibrator to implement a better tone-mapping regardless of how accurate the display is, it may take a decade or more to achieve that artifical inteligence. The eye is a visual monster compared to a spectrum radiometer. Dynamic ToneMapping across may worthy transfers is the next challenge for the best of calibrators.


I wish Samsung all the best with their smaller tile wall, we do need to ask some questions about microled. Is so much resolution needed, or appreciable, what are the side effects if any of such small pixels in their perception when they are so packed next to each other, is so much resolution, unrestrained color (although well calibrated rec 2020 is a sight to behold) and so much nit range, all of that packed so densely THUSFAR  has not possible be made to look anything remotely as enticing as the C-Led which is 1.2mm, also the second code name Miami screen that is the second best looking in my book as of today is 1.2mm. The signal here is easily managed with today's wall send boxes, more pixels, more color depth and more nits, requires a lot more horsepower that at the moment if it exists has not been harnessed proper to replicate the ways the eye see.






It would be interesting if the people attending ISE chime in on these matters, do the extreme specmanship Micro Led, look as good or better than than todays better mini led?

[Peter CINERAMAX]

The Main and Left and Right channels, with their accompanying bass extender modules dropped today, these are the last of the speakers getting ready to ship.


Those are 10 inch woofers, biamped, the HF amp has a class a like output stage, the bass are n-class 2,000 watts.

[donaldk]

The Sony C-LED actually is using micro leds not mini leds. It aso uses an enourmous black area surrounding the micro leds. That makes for a pitch equivalent of 1.2mm. So they are not packed closely together.


Now loosing most of the packaging surrounding the leds is a good thing, right. It offers smaller pitch and/or embeddability with a black epoxy. Well uniform black is hard to attain. As I am told you can't colour it as it comes out even less uniform, and a few other production/quality issues. Supposedly, the lower contrast between black surface and leds makes for a more pleasing image. According to I believe ABSEN that first showed its version at ISE a few years ago.

[Peter CINERAMAX]

Calibration detail reposted for C-LED:


Each C-LED cabinet module gets made up of 8 or 10? rectangular imager tiles. Each one of those has to be individually calibrated with a quality spectrum-radiometer. That is a lot of passes.