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Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?

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  • I sat through a brief (I was affraid it would take the full two hours, announced before the show) demo of the Envy at ISE. The projector used was the Sony VW 5000. And indeed it were the brighter parts that were enhanced. On the one animated racing game movie scene the girl's jacket's waist insert went from almost colourless, antique pink to reddish colour, whith some sheen and sparkle.

    The Iron giant statute, from the same segment was flat black with hardly any detail with the Sony taking over the HDR processing. I say taking over as the Eny sends out the processed signal announcing it as SDR, to circumvent the projector's HDR processing, when the Envy is taken out the signal path the Sony sees the HDR signalling and starts to do its own tonemapping and processing.

    Any detail enhancement in the dark area's was not as clear. I noticed one horizontal beam against an even darker b(l)ackground. And actually it was more visible with the Envy turned off as it became a tad grey against the dark black background, compared to the black with some surface highlight the Envy made of it.

    Nigel suggested that the dark area enghancement was hindered by the Sony's not too great a blackfloor.

    There was some stutter as the camera swung to Lady Gaga's face as she stood on the side of the stage. I can't say if that is in the movie or in the after processing, by the Envy.

    Walter confirmed afterwards that the motion processing was not implemented/enabled/used in this processor as shown.

    Fortunately it was not as apparant and head ache inducing as some LED displays, just noticable, as was is trying to watch with great attention during demo's like this one. Every show there's at least one LED display that has motion issues, quickly forgot which one it was this year:-(, one of the lesser known brands in Hall 12, I believe.

    I was bothered by the obvious panning blur in the later demo of the very much littler brother of the RGB Laser Thor, the RGB LED Barco Bragi. This was clearly part of the content, that's why I have been promoting 1200 CLEAN frames per second, over any messing around with 60 or 120P, and throwing out resolution with motion precompensation blur and shallow depth of field blur, for many, many years. The little Barco by the way looked considerably better (or good) than last years 'about to be released unit' demo at last year's show. Using a 3.1 meter wide screen helped. The RGB looked very 'quiet', not that I am really bothered by colourwheels.

    To conclude upon first glance the Envy clearly does something to the image.


    By the way Wolfgang I made a point to look for the Barco Demo suite for the 3D LED demo, unfortunately it was not a continuous demo, and I didn't manage to make it back in time for the scheduled demo. I did manage to catch the continuous Christie Microtiles 1.25mm pitch 3D demo, on the showfloor, and what can I say, it worked. So if you want 3D LED walls are the way to go as it, with some projectors, continues to support/re-introduced 3D, to cater to the large themepark market.

    Comment


    • Hi Wolgang;


      Thanks for the initial review, any further thoughts after having it in your chain a few days?

      Comment


      • No I wait for new software as I will not test it further when this motion bug is there.
        But today MadVR inform me that they have a fix for it but its may a bit early to test.
        As I do not have time to test the upcoming days I will wait some time and hope to get by then a software version that solve this and other smaller things.
        I stopp also watching HDR movies till this is solved as when you get use to the picture the Envi do it is almost impossible to going back.

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        • Yesterday after my return from a trip the developer of the MadVR Envi Mathais Rauen update my unit with a new software that address the micro stutter problem with 24p hdr 4k content I have report.

          After this upgrade I watch the movie “The Revenant” and in 2 hours and 30 min. I cannot see any micro stutter at all.
          I think this bug was gone very nice.

          I also try the new movie “Gemini Man” one of the rare 4K 60P movies but there I can see about every 7 to 8 min. a black picture for some 2 to 4 sec.
          I have report this to him and he told me that they are working on this as well.
          He told me that in 1 or 2 weeks this should be solved as well.

          As I am a big 3D fan I ask him about 3D support that right now not works at all.
          He told me that he is working on it as 3D is still for people with a good projector an issue and he is relative optimistic to find in the next weeks a solution for it.

          The Revenant was the first full movie I saw with the Envi and as I have post already it made a great picture.
          Love it!

          When you get used to the Envi it is at least for me not possible to going back.

          Comment


          • Good news about the Envi for 4K 60P signals.

            Looks like it work without any problem now.
            There was may be an issue coming from the Oppo BD Player in the past as now when I select 4K 60P at 4:2:0 at the Oppo Gemini Man payed at least the about 25 min. I  watch without any visible bug.
            As there is a full shout down in Bavaria because of the Corona Virus I will have now plenty of time to watch movies.
            So I will report again when I saw the whole movie but so far it looks all good.
            And looks like this movie will be a picture reference.

            Comment


            • Good to hear the Envy is capable of bug free 4K 60. It is a very special HDR processor.
              I pray our extra free downtime due to the virus is short lived and we slowly start to return to normal.

              Comment


              • We watch "Gemini Man" the whole movie in 4K 60P with the Barco Thor and the Envi processor this afternoon.

                What an event what a perfect picture and a good movie.
                On the one side it is hard for many people include me as we get very used to the 24p motion bug.
                Now watching 60P with very smooth motion that we know only from TV no wonder many film fans do not like it.
                But I am sure this is just something we have to adopt and as we will see more and more movies like this “some will be may complain forever” but a lot will like it and see
                24P as a nightmare soon.
                The trues is 24p is a nightmare in motion we just adopt over time very good to it.

                The Envi do not show any single bug during this 2 hour movie at least not I can see.
                As post I use "UHD 60" at the Oppo and "4:2:0" as other settings from the Oppo like "UHD Auto" cause big problems with picture drop every 3 to 4 seconds.
                Select UHD 60 together with 4:2:0 instead of 4:2:2 solve all problems.
                Looks like this was a edit bug inside the equipment loop.

                Also new I play with the saturation adjustment and sharpness adjustment from the Envi first time and I must say that it outperform the Oppo sharpness a bit.
                First it can be set very fine adjust not like the Oppo payer where sharpness 1 is almost to high the Envi can be adjust very fine and separate for sharpness and detail.
                There was a small bug when you use sharpens and switch from off to 1 and more the step from off to 1 increase the brightness or gamma.
                The picture becomes brighter. Going higher than 1 do not change anything just made the picture more sharp.
                I use sharpness 2 and detail 3 from the Envi when we watch "Gemini Man" but I decrease the Oppo from sharpness 1 I have used in the past to 0.
                So the Oppo put out the native signal from the disc only the Envi did the processing HDR and all other and it looks fantastic!

                It was some of the best ever watch movies from picture quality standpoint.
                The Envi works in many ways to improve the picture.
                It makes HDR brighter and together with his unique “Detail Recovery” and other things the result is a wonderful picture with no lost in clipping parts at all.
                But todays movie also show very nice that the Envi enhance also the near black parts and as I can dim my laser more down I see a better black level as well.

                May there are some small bugs still at this beta unit but for me there is no way to going back to watch without the Envi any HDR material in future.
                Next will be to see if I can confirm what I hear from other beta Envi user that even with a normally BD the signal looks better with the Envi.
                As soon as I have try it out I will report about it here.

                Comment


                • Yesterday I got new Software for the Envi MadVR Processor.

                  Now it can download automatically new software if there is a new one and some other bugs are solved.
                  One of them was to playback normally Full HD Blue Rays in 24 P without a motion bug.

                  As it was told to me that the scaling works with the Envi better than any other BD Player and display I try to playback for the first time a full hd blue ray in 2D.
                  And this was a surprise I can tell you!

                  I can see slightly more details without adding any visible bugs.
                  After I check the test resolution pattern that was on most Sony BDs I understand why this Envi show such a good picture from BD.

                  I was shocked in a positive way to see for the first time ever that scaling can be further improved.
                  I never in over 20 years deep in home cinema I have seen anything like this before.
                  Normally all Displays Processors or Blue Ray Player STB etc. show similar bugs the Oppo did in this test pattern see both pictures.
                  There are some kind of ringing inside together with some good visible stair steps that you can easy see on the diagonal lines.
                  So this is normal and I expect it but the Envi show “almost nothing of this stair steps” “no ringing at all” and “a more sharp picture on top”!!!
                  This was a big surprise!

                  In good Full HD 2D BDs you can see this improvement.
                  The Envi improve BDs that are in a good quality in a way I have never think this will be possible.

                  I hear from other Beta user that even DVD was improved in the same way but even stronger in the positive way.

                  I really hope they can do the same for 3D Blue Rays as this will be there also very welcome!

                  I have also found something negative.
                  Brightness and Contrast do not work in the normal way that we all know.
                  Because of Brightness not adjust the Black Level it adjust only Gamma which is very confusing and different to all other equipment I know.
                  There is no adjustment for black level and white level so far.
                  Same the contrast works not like you normally expect.

                  I hope that will be changed soon as this is very confusing and there is only to my knowledge this Envi there and all other Displays Projector or Scaler do it different.
                  Also the steps adjustable are too small and with the existing remote it is much too time consuming to see an effect as you have to press for every step one time.
                  I hear also that it will be soon a solution for this issues. BTW:
                  If you like to get a new picture reference in Blue Ray 2D you should order “Downton Abbey The Movie”.
                  Unbelievably that this picture comes from a BD.
                  Some 4K UHD disc with 4 times the resolution much better color and HDR looking not any better some worse than this BD!
                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                  • It being pc based just add an Blue Thooth or wifi keyboard and let people set values, numerically as an option? Leaving the remote for finer adjustments.


                    The circular pattern on the envy thumbnail shows some trembling, noise, line interference on my laptop. Actually I now see it on the Oppo Thumbail above aswell. The full size image doesn't.


                    The difference between the two is like night and day.

                    Comment


                    • That is a nice surprise. The improvement in the two photos is very easy to see.
                      Regarding the lack of a brightness adjustment I am guessing they assume this gets set in the projector so not needed in the envy but not all commercial and cinema projectors have this setting so we must really on it being in a separate video processor.

                      It being pc based just add an Blue Thooth or wifi keyboard and let people set values, numerically as an option? Leaving the remote for finer adjustments.
                      <\q>
                      This is not possible, the windows operating system is not exposed in the Envy. It is very similar to the Lumagen or any other video processor, when it is first turned on you are greeted with a nice Envy logo then your source appears. The GUI, menu, settings appear clean and simple in design and well thought out. Most features are unique to the Envy and most offer superior processing.

                      Comment


                      • I went last week to see a demo for the Samsung Micro LED Wall Professional and Lux together with other LED Walls like the 2K 5.2 Meter wide Cinema Screen.
                        This one is normally in a 4K Version in Cinemas with 10.4 meter wide so only a quarter of it.

                        As I had report earlier I love the Cinema Version as I saw there a 3D movie and clips in 2D and all looks fantastic with no bugs at all beside some minor motion artefacts in 3D in some
                        very few seq.
                        This was opposite to the Sony Micro LED Wall that show big reflections with visible gabs.

                        So it was a big negative surprise for me to see that I can easy see panels and individual parts of one panel all over.
                        Samsung told me that they know this and that this individual setup was travels in whole Europe a lot and this was an early unit and it will be replaced with a new one soon that will not show this bug.

                        On top of this I can see a big noisy picture in some space sequences from one of the reference UHD Disc I had with my “Passengers” playback with the Oppo UHD Player.
                        Looks like this is a bug I hear about it since some time that LED Walls in the near 0 IRE cannot show it when motion comes as well without any bug.
                        It looks not good and this was “big visible” not anything small that anybody like to see with a setup in this price range.

                        May I will be visit again but so far this 2 bugs is a clear no for me.

                        So on the positive side was the super clear and sharp picture a projector can never do.
                        Also the cr. looks perfect.
                        I rate it infinity black.
                        This in combination with the super good ansi cr. made a picture that blow you away.
                        I am sure getting used to this kind of picture a projector is dead for sure as it will be never ever can do such a picture.
                        Reason is just physics when you know how the picture was create by such a LED Wall and a Projector.

                        But for me it is a clear no to buy because of the 2 bugs and on top the Mirco LED Wall cannot do 3D.
                        But when this 2 bugs and the missing 3D will be there I love to see it again as I think this is clear the future.

                        I am fine with my Barco Thor as picture quality is all together still best you can buy today may till the Christy Eclipes will hit the market.
                        But there will be questions about speckle and other things.
                        But even then I will first see this Eclipse unit with my own eye and this can be take some time as we have all this travel restrictions because of Corona
                        I will be wait till we have after 6 to 9 months to hear reports from those that install it that maintenance of the Eclipse is ok or a nightmare together with the dust issue I had report.

                        For the time being I am fine and enjoy this days at home a lot of good movies in a very good picture quality.
                        The Envi MadVR Processor enhance this a lot as I have report.
                        So I am not in hurry to replace it.

                        Comment


                        • Wolfgang, the list of isues comes into play for the three ranges? So, for the IF range smd led technology based Onyx (Unlike the Sony C-LED that is based on epoxy), the Wall (Pro) and The Wall Lux? All show the near black image noise? Equally?


                          A considerated approach is always advisable.

                          Comment


                          • Thanks Wolfgang ! Nice overall review of the state of things right now. Glad to see that you are still enjoying your Thor.


                            Art

                            Comment


                            • With the enhancement I did in the last years like improving cr. at the Thor by using some tricks in the laser color adjustments a new fabric screen that kills speckle and improve black and increase size a lot.... the picture was better than ever.
                              On top of this the new MadVR Envi Processor enhance the picture quality even further so it is still the best picture in my opinion that money can buy today and I had this quality since quite some time and enjoy it a lot not only in this Corona Virus time.

                              The whole talking about black is a bit too much for me.
                              Yes blacks are important and as you and I comes from a Sony G90 doublestack we both love the absolute black a lot but the trues is that this is just one part of an overall picture quality . A important parameter no question but is it really so important that just this is worth to jump into an financial adventure don’t know if an Eclipse will be a nightmare about maintenances like convergence and many other parameters?

                              We watch yesterday the movie "The Mule from Clint Eastwood" 4K UHD Disc.
                              It was a good movie and a nice picture even if the master is only a 2K master.
                              In this movie there was not any black sequence at all that I can recall where I was complaining about not so good black level.
                              But this is a very bright movie other movies may benefit more form a good black level.

                              I post already that LED Walls are not today the solution for an upgrade for me.
                              Let's hope that Christie are ok with this huge economic drop that the Corona Virus had worldwide and release the Eclipse soon that we can see if this unit are doing well after few months of operating.

                              Even after Sony stop to produce Cinema Pr. they are continue to do Home Cinema Pr.
                              The upcoming VW5000 successor with 10.000 lumen can be an option for you and for me as well.
                              As I had post may I use in future the Barco only for 3D and the Sony for all what is 2D.
                              All this is not under time pressure for me when the Sony and Christie Eclipse will be ready I take a look.

                              Comment


                              • Today I should get new Software for the MadVR Envi that can do 3D as well together with  some bug fixes for the Movie 1917.
                                Cant wait to see how the Envi perform with 3D BDs.
                                I hope it will be same as 2D BDs that show a better picture than anything else I try in my live.

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