Barco Thor 4K 6P Residential Laser Projector the best in the World?

[donaldk]

Uhm 8Bit, like Creston had at ISE 2016.

60 Hz 4:2:0 24 bit

https://www.crestron.com/downloads/pdf/spec_sheets/commercial_and_residential/hd-md6x2-4k-e.pdf

[w.mayer]

Thank you for your note Donald!

It is already on the way to me but I will return the shipment without try it.
You are right 8 bit is too low i need 10 bit.

[donaldk]

10 Bit 4:2:0 is already a niche, 4:2:2 a rarity with 60 Hz. Even the ones that claim 600 Mhz bandwidth can have issues with EDID even with EDID management.  You are one of the few that said you required 4:2:2 also giving the difficulty of Barco handling 4:2:0. Consumer sources are all 4:2:0, there simply aren't (m)any 4:2:2 cabable HEVC chipsets. There is at least one output chip, but that only does 4:2:0 conversion on the output, not 4:2:2 handling/throughput. So if you want to see that new RTL Drama next spring in 4K and HDR (HD+ simulcasing in 4K?), you have to have 50P, and 10 bit 4:2:0 input. I hope you don't have to pay big time for a Barco E2/E3.

[w.mayer]

I think I have report already that Barco had new Software for the Barco Thor that now  work with 4:2:0.
So this is not a issue anymore.

[w.mayer]

Today I got a missing file that allows me to playback 4K 3D at 30 frames per second with the Barco Thor.
The clip I have in this frame rate show now a smoother motion compare to 24P.

[w.mayer]

Since long time I plan to do it.

I measure the Cr. the Barco Thor have today in details.

Reason was that I lately found out that especially for UHD HDR Content there must be a very good match with the source in my case the Oppo player and the Barco Thor projector.
It take some time till I learn how this parameters for contrast and brightness have to be adjust from the Oppo player and what must be then adjust in the Barco Thor about the nit adjustments and other things.

When the unit was new I found till above 6000:1 on off cr. with a high ansi Cr. in the 950:1 range.
So when you are interested to see for the first time ever what I measure with the direct source and corrected
Black and White Test pattern take a look at this " hand drawing" I have made.
Please not tell me I am bad about such drawings I know it.

[MrPixels]

Nice to see higher numbers toward the edge of the screen due to laser light source.

When your projector was new and you first measured contrast above 6000:1 did you use the uncorrected or corrected test pattern.
If uncorrected then the projector has maintained its contrast, very nice.
It is expected to see a brightness and contrast drop when using corrected patterns.

These numbers look very good and a little more then three times better then the average cinema projector.

[w.mayer]

The original 6300:1 was after the last cr. upgrade measured with the
uncorrected black white and internal test pattern so native without any color correction and uniformity correction.

Interesting to see when I switch uniformity to off that this kills just about 1% of the lumen in average so almost nothing!
The real drop are comes from the color correction and there it is important where your laser power will be during you measure.

The bit more I found today can be a better adjustment of the source and Barco.
Possible as it is only about a good 1% that it was a measurement difference.

So there is not any cr. drop there for sure.

As I say when cr. and brightness are "just a little out of perfect" in this system during displaying HDR material the cr. can easy drop to only 3000:1 or below!
Also nit clipping point is important.

[w.mayer]

I create today 2 new macros in the Barco Thor.

This allows me to easy switch between the color calibrated version and the non-color calibrated version to so see if there is further room for  cr. enhancement without destroy
the super perfect color the Barco show.
Just remember the Barco Thor can do not 90% or 95% DCI color it can do at full light output 100% DCI color with 6 P laser!
Even more if you switch 3 from 6 laser to off you can do 100% Rec. 2020 color but this kills 50% of the lumen and enhance speckling a bit.
Still there is not any Projector beside the Barco 6P Laser that can do this in combination with a high contrast number.

I have measured with different test pattern and video content "Passengers UHD Disc" between color correction on and no color correction 
with surprising numbers.

At 62% laser diming "I use normally for all scope 2D content" corrected color lumen is "ONLY 4,35% less" compare to the non-corrected color!
At 100% laser the difference between corrected color to non-corrected color is "ONLY 2,73%"!
Also color looks very similar only a tick more green was there in the non-corrected color.

Anyway the 4,35% more lumen should give me about 228:1 more cr. so now in theory I should measure not 5229:1 I should measure 5457:1 (screen average see my hand drawing).
Sure you not can see this around 4.5% more cr. but may I feel better☺!

So where this huge difference in the 17% range between the internal test patter “12 bit full white uncorrected” and UHD Material (color correction on and off) are coming from
Are there may be some room somewhere in the Barco Settings to further enhance the cr. without give best color up?

[w.mayer]

I found lately a way to increase the Barco Thor cr. to over 6000:1 with “actual UHD HDR Content” without ruin the good color the Barco do.

All this is very complex and I do not have the time to going into details here so I just will post some basics.

Oppo UHD Player outputs brightness and cr. is to low need to increase!
This boost “if the Barco was right configured” cr. from before 2985:1 to 5229:1!

Barco need for this enhanced Oppo output new HDR and many other adjustments that match with the
NIT clipping point and other things!
I let clip it at the moment at 400 nit till I found some better adjustments.

With some other tricks in the Barco Thor I found now up to 6304:1 cr.
but picture looks color wise not nice with too much green inside.
But I found a way that take care about all this.
This costs only 4,5% lumen and cr.!

So at the end with a good color and a perfect uniformity I end up with 6020:1 cr. (screen average center left right) during playback a UHD HDR 4K Disc and not on test pattern.
A nice increase in cr. compare to the about half I saw before the Oppo adjustment and the Barco improvement.

[w.mayer]

As I have report my Crestron System is now ready but one thing was not comfortable.

The Barco Thor had as most other Projectors just 2 HDMI 2.0 Inputs.
Input A was used from the Marantz Receiver where different inputs are connected like STB and Videocam and more.
Input B was used from the Oppo UHD Player to playback all disc formats.

So I need to disconnect always this 2 HDMI cables when I like to see my 4K 3D still pictures from my 4K 3D computer.
Then 2 HDMI computer outputs left and right connect to the Barco.
After I have to disconnect it and put the HDMI cable from Marantz and Oppo Player back.
Not a nice way!

This is why I order a HDMI Matirx Switcher.
This comes 2 days ago and I try it.
Result you can see here in the pictures.
When the Matrix is in-between picture show a lot of banding not only the UHD 4K 60P HDR version also the
UHD 4K 24P HDR version show this banding!
"Please note that you need at least for the Sony Logo the full resolution picture to see the banding so click on it."
The Sony VW760 show the same banding but there you need to switch the "Smooth Graduation" to off as this filters the Banding that the Sony sometimes show out.
The Barco Thor do not have such a filter as it show not any Banding at all.

Sad as I had hope that it will be working but one more time a good sample that the 18GB do not say if the unit can do a bug free picture.

I hope that they can fix this as it is not so nice to always disconnect and connect  this 2 HDMI cables to just see some
4K3D Stills from my computer.

[donaldk]

Is this the 8 Bit limit in the switcher?

[w.mayer]

No Spec. wise looks all ok but as i say this specs not say if it really works without bugs.

[w.mayer]

There is lately much discussion at what nit level a projection system should clip with HDR UHD Discs.

In general there is not an easy answer for this as many factors have an influence on this.
-Lumen projector can do.
-Cr. this pr. have
-What screen is used
-What disc is playing see down..
Any many more….

Our SDR system we are all know clip at 100 nits.
Our HDR are clip depends on how the disc was mastered.
Some clip at 1000 nits some at 2000 and some at 4000 nits and Dolby Vision clips at 10.000 nits!

We have some high end displays that can do 1000 nits or near 2000 nits but there is that not any projector
that really have the light ouput to project very high HDR nit numbers first as the Pr. is not bright enough second if you for sample stack 2 projectors to double the light output you running into other problems like aliment and other things.

But let’s say that you can match two 4K pr. relatively good then there is another problem.
When you let clip at a very high number let’s say 2000 nits the picture becomes very dim.
To enhance lumen you stack 2 projectors but then your picture becomes brighter what is generally a good thing but then you easy can ruin the cr. and black looks not black anymore.

I run my Barco at about 6200 Lumen output for my 7 meter scope screen.
This give me about 21 ftl and this looks very bright at this huge screen.
I do not like it brighter.
Why?
I setup my system to let it clip at between 400 and 600 nits depends on the movie.
So my Barco have about 12.000 lumen at about 6300:1 cr. see my last posts.
So I easy can double the light output and when you increase clipping point to let’s say 1000 nits it looks not so good as then the black is not anymore black.

In the past with a Sony 5000 that had about good double the on off cr. the Barco have it is may possible to clip a bit higher but all my practice I have with HDR tells
me to let clip it at 500 nit not more otherwise you can easy ruin your black level possible ansi cr. as well.
To me 5 times more dynamic range is a visible step up but as all this is a compromise and depends on the taste the user like it.
So if you can give up good blacks yes than you can gain more dynamic range so it is really depends on the movie itself a bit if it was a very dark movie may you let it clip at
500 nits if it was a very bright movie with less dark sequences inside may you let it clip at 1000 nits.
Funny was that Barco comes to exactly the same numbers without talking with me about it!

This discussion will be possible over soon as some new technology from different manufactures will be coming in the next years that will solve this kind of problem and give us HDR
how we like it very bright and in combination with a good black level.

[donaldk]

Practically SDR TVs have been offering in the 300 nits range for years. The electronics stretched the properly graded content to match this situation. Of course the reds and most of all the blues are less strong than they wouod be when usiing an HDR grade. So, clipping in TVs has been well above 100 nits for years.

The SuperKontrast used cusom gamma curves. The Sony 760/JVC(Z1 and lamp units) owners/calibrators are now implementing custom curves programmed into the projectors using a new piece of software, plus the Projectors'software that allowloading of alternative curves. Before that there was the AV TOP software from germany that allowed for dynamic HDR using the HD Fury Integral and later controllable convertors. That same software also provides an interface for Calman to offer autocalibration by controlling the projector through the software.

So, is using other curves the next step to retain black performance with higher peak white?